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Company Information for

CML SOFTWARE LIMITED

9 KING STREET, LONDON, EC2V 8EA,
Company Registration Number
02696908
Private Limited Company
Active

Company Overview

About Cml Software Ltd
CML SOFTWARE LIMITED was founded on 1992-03-13 and has its registered office in London. The organisation's status is listed as "Active". Cml Software Limited is a Private Limited Company registered in ENGLAND with Companies House and the accounts submission requirement is categorised as AUDIT EXEMPTION SUBSIDIARY
Key Data
Company Name
CML SOFTWARE LIMITED
 
Legal Registered Office
9 KING STREET
LONDON
EC2V 8EA
Other companies in RG10
 
Previous Names
CLASSMETHOD LIMITED11/01/2005
Filing Information
Company Number 02696908
Company ID Number 02696908
Date formed 1992-03-13
Country ENGLAND
Origin Country United Kingdom
Type Private Limited Company
CompanyStatus Active
Lastest accounts 31/12/2022
Account next due 30/09/2024
Latest return 13/03/2016
Return next due 10/04/2017
Type of accounts AUDIT EXEMPTION SUBSIDIARY
VAT Number /Sales tax ID GB599998813  
Last Datalog update: 2024-04-06 19:19:54
Primary Source:Companies House
There are multiple companies registered at this address, the registered address may be the accountant's offices for CML SOFTWARE LIMITED
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Companies with same name CML SOFTWARE LIMITED
The following companies were found which have the same name as CML SOFTWARE LIMITED. These may be the same company in different jurisdictions
  Registered addressLast known statusFormation date
CML SOFTWARE, INC. 10626 S.W. 102ND STREET MIAMI FL 33176 Inactive Company formed on the 1983-02-17

Company Officers of CML SOFTWARE LIMITED

Current Directors
Officer Role Date Appointed
JOHN ADLER ENSIGN
Director 2018-07-06
PATRICK JOSEPH GHILANI
Director 2018-07-06
ROMAN TELERMAN
Director 2018-07-06
Previous Officers
Officer Role Date Appointed Date Resigned
ALEXANDER CHETWODE
Director 2010-01-21 2018-07-06
HARRY GROUNDS
Director 1993-09-01 2018-07-06
PAUL DAVID MCDONALD
Director 1998-10-26 2018-07-06
PAUL MCBRIDE
Director 1992-04-01 2018-03-14
DEBORAH ANNE HORSFORD
Company Secretary 2007-11-21 2017-10-24
ROBERT IAN HORSFORD
Director 2004-03-10 2017-10-24
ANDREW BERNARD PITCHER
Company Secretary 2006-04-01 2007-11-20
ANDREW BERNARD PITCHER
Director 2005-01-25 2007-11-20
DIANA KERSWELL
Company Secretary 1992-04-01 2006-03-31
SWIFT INCORPORATIONS LIMITED
Nominated Secretary 1992-03-13 1992-04-01
INSTANT COMPANIES LIMITED
Nominated Director 1992-03-13 1992-04-01

Related Directorships

Officer Related Company Role Date Appointed Role StatusIncorporation dateCompany Status
JOHN ADLER ENSIGN ESTATE COMPUTER SYSTEMS (HOLDINGS) LIMITED Director 2017-10-02 CURRENT 1991-08-30 Active - Proposal to Strike off
JOHN ADLER ENSIGN REAL ASSET MANAGEMENT GROUP LIMITED Director 2017-09-18 CURRENT 2002-05-09 Active - Proposal to Strike off
JOHN ADLER ENSIGN MRI SOFTWARE LIMITED Director 2017-03-10 CURRENT 1997-03-27 Active
JOHN ADLER ENSIGN COUGAR SOFTWARE LIMITED Director 2015-02-03 CURRENT 2007-03-21 Active - Proposal to Strike off
PATRICK JOSEPH GHILANI ESTATE COMPUTER SYSTEMS (HOLDINGS) LIMITED Director 2017-10-02 CURRENT 1991-08-30 Active - Proposal to Strike off
PATRICK JOSEPH GHILANI REAL ASSET MANAGEMENT GROUP LIMITED Director 2017-09-18 CURRENT 2002-05-09 Active - Proposal to Strike off
ROMAN TELERMAN ESTATE COMPUTER SYSTEMS (HOLDINGS) LIMITED Director 2017-10-02 CURRENT 1991-08-30 Active - Proposal to Strike off
ROMAN TELERMAN COUGAR SOFTWARE LIMITED Director 2017-09-27 CURRENT 2007-03-21 Active - Proposal to Strike off
ROMAN TELERMAN REAL ASSET MANAGEMENT GROUP LIMITED Director 2017-09-18 CURRENT 2002-05-09 Active - Proposal to Strike off

More director information

Corporation Filing History
Companies House Filing History
This is a record of the public documents (corporate filing) lodged from Companies House where the company has filed annual returns and other statutory filing documents. Examples of documents filed include: change of registered office, accounts filing, director/officer appointments & resignations, changes in share capital, shareholder members lists etc.

DateDocument TypeDocument Description
2024-03-18CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/24, WITH UPDATES
2023-10-22Notice of agreement to exemption from audit of accounts for period ending 31/12/22
2023-10-22Audit exemption statement of guarantee by parent company for period ending 31/12/22
2023-10-22Consolidated accounts of parent company for subsidiary company period ending 31/12/22
2023-10-22Audit exemption subsidiary accounts made up to 2022-12-31
2023-03-21CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/23, WITH UPDATES
2023-03-21CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/23, WITH UPDATES
2022-09-20AASMALL COMPANY ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/21
2022-03-15CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/22, WITH UPDATES
2021-09-24AASMALL COMPANY ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/20
2021-03-15CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/21, WITH UPDATES
2020-10-13AASMALL COMPANY ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/19
2020-03-13CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/20, WITH UPDATES
2019-10-18AASMALL COMPANY ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/12/18
2019-10-10AA01Previous accounting period shortened from 31/03/19 TO 31/12/18
2019-07-30AD01REGISTERED OFFICE CHANGED ON 30/07/19 FROM Unit 3 Waltham Court Milley Lane Hare Hatch Reading Berkshire RG10 9AA
2019-06-08DISS40Compulsory strike-off action has been discontinued
2019-06-06CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/19, WITH UPDATES
2019-06-04GAZ1FIRST GAZETTE notice for compulsory strike-off
2019-04-17PSC07CESSATION OF CONTINUUM SYSTEMS LIMITED AS A PERSON OF SIGNIFICANT CONTROL
2019-04-17PSC02Notification of Mri Software Ltd as a person with significant control on 2018-07-06
2018-07-16TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR HARRY GROUNDS
2018-07-16RES01ADOPT ARTICLES 16/07/18
2018-07-10MR04STATEMENT OF SATISFACTION OF A CHARGE / FULL / CHARGE NO 2
2018-07-10MR04STATEMENT OF SATISFACTION OF A CHARGE / FULL / CHARGE NO 1
2018-07-09TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR ALEXANDER CHETWODE
2018-07-09TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR PAUL MCDONALD
2018-07-09TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR PAUL MCDONALD
2018-07-09AP01DIRECTOR APPOINTED MR JOHN ADLER ENSIGN
2018-07-09AP01DIRECTOR APPOINTED MR ROMAN TELERMAN
2018-07-09AP01DIRECTOR APPOINTED MR PATRICK GHILANI
2018-06-05AA31/03/18 ACCOUNTS TOTAL EXEMPTION FULL
2018-05-25LATEST SOC25/05/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1264
2018-05-25SH0121/05/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1264
2018-05-16SH0114/05/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1240
2018-04-19SH06Cancellation of shares. Statement of capital on 2018-03-14 GBP 1,208
2018-04-19RES09Resolution of authority to purchase a number of shares
2018-04-19SH03Purchase of own shares
2018-04-11LATEST SOC11/04/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1566
2018-04-11SH0119/03/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1566
2018-03-14TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR PAUL MCBRIDE
2018-03-13CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/18, WITH UPDATES
2018-02-22LATEST SOC22/02/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1558
2018-02-22SH0120/02/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1558
2018-02-01LATEST SOC01/02/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1550
2018-02-01SH0129/01/18 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1550
2017-12-13SH03RETURN OF PURCHASE OF OWN SHARES
2017-11-16RES09AUTHORITY- PURCHASE SHARES OTHER THAN FROM CAPITAL
2017-11-16LATEST SOC16/11/17 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1542
2017-11-16SH0624/10/17 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1542
2017-10-25TM02APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, SECRETARY DEBORAH HORSFORD
2017-10-25TM01APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR ROBERT HORSFORD
2017-07-27AA31/03/17 TOTAL EXEMPTION FULL
2017-03-15CS01CONFIRMATION STATEMENT MADE ON 13/03/17, WITH UPDATES
2017-01-26RES11DISAPPLICATION OF PRE-EMPTION RIGHTS
2017-01-26RES01ADOPT ARTICLES 06/12/2016
2016-11-30LATEST SOC30/11/16 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1659
2016-11-30SH0614/10/16 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1659
2016-11-30SH03RETURN OF PURCHASE OF OWN SHARES
2016-11-30SH0614/10/16 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1659
2016-11-30SH03RETURN OF PURCHASE OF OWN SHARES
2016-11-21AA31/03/16 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2016-11-04RES09AUTHORITY- PURCHASE SHARES OTHER THAN FROM CAPITAL
2016-03-22LATEST SOC22/03/16 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1776
2016-03-22AR0113/03/16 FULL LIST
2016-01-11SH03RETURN OF PURCHASE OF OWN SHARES
2015-12-04LATEST SOC04/12/15 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1776
2015-12-04SH0618/11/15 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1776
2015-12-04RES09AUTHORITY- PURCHASE SHARES OTHER THAN FROM CAPITAL
2015-10-21AA31/03/15 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2015-03-16LATEST SOC16/03/15 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1892
2015-03-16AR0113/03/15 FULL LIST
2015-01-09AA31/03/14 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2014-03-13LATEST SOC13/03/14 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1892
2014-03-13AR0113/03/14 FULL LIST
2014-03-10CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / PAUL MCBRIDE / 01/02/2014
2013-12-27AAMDAMENDED EXEMPTION SMALL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/13
2013-12-13AA31/03/13 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2013-03-14AR0113/03/13 FULL LIST
2012-12-20AA31/03/12 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2012-03-13AR0113/03/12 FULL LIST
2012-03-09MG01PARTICULARS OF A MORTGAGE OR CHARGE / CHARGE NO: 2
2012-03-02MG01PARTICULARS OF A MORTGAGE OR CHARGE / CHARGE NO: 1
2011-12-28AA31/03/11 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2011-03-14AR0113/03/11 FULL LIST
2010-11-01AA31/03/10 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2010-03-31AR0113/03/10 FULL LIST
2010-03-31CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / MR ALEXANDER CHETWODE / 13/03/2010
2010-02-17AP01DIRECTOR APPOINTED MR ALEXANDER CHETWODE
2010-02-05RES12VARYING SHARE RIGHTS AND NAMES
2010-02-05RES01ADOPT ARTICLES 21/01/2010
2010-02-05SH0121/01/10 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1804
2010-02-05SH0121/01/10 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1400
2010-02-05SH08NOTICE OF NAME OR OTHER DESIGNATION OF CLASS OF SHARES
2009-10-22AA31/03/09 TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL
2009-10-06CH03SECRETARY'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / DEBORAH ANNE HORSFORD / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / PAUL MCDONALD / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / PAUL MCBRIDE / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / MR HARRY GROUNDS / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / PAUL MCDONALD / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / ROBERT IAN HORSFORD / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / PAUL MCBRIDE / 01/10/2009
2009-10-06CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / MR HARRY GROUNDS / 01/10/2009
2009-10-05CH01DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / ROBERT IAN HORSFORD / 01/10/2009
2009-03-16363aRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/09; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2008-11-21AA31/03/08 TOTAL EXEMPTION FULL
2008-04-08363aRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/08; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2008-04-08288cDIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / HARRY GROUNDS / 13/03/2008
2008-03-05ELRESS252 DISP LAYING ACC 21/02/2008
2008-03-05ELRESS366A DISP HOLDING AGM 21/02/2008
2008-01-22363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/07; NO CHANGE OF MEMBERS; AMEND
2008-01-2288(2)RAD 10/12/07--------- £ SI 50@1=50 £ IC 1216/1266
2007-11-28288aNEW SECRETARY APPOINTED
2007-11-23288bSECRETARY RESIGNED;DIRECTOR RESIGNED
2007-10-29287REGISTERED OFFICE CHANGED ON 29/10/07 FROM: UNIT 1B WALTHAM COURT MILLEY LANE HARE HATCH READING BERKSHIRE RG10 9AA
2007-09-04AATOTAL EXEMPTION FULL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/07
2007-03-21363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/07; NO CHANGE OF MEMBERS
2006-11-02AATOTAL EXEMPTION FULL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/06
2006-05-09288bSECRETARY RESIGNED
2006-05-09288aNEW SECRETARY APPOINTED
2006-04-04363(288)SECRETARY'S PARTICULARS CHANGED;DIRECTOR'S PARTICULARS CHANGED
2006-04-04363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/06; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2006-03-06AATOTAL EXEMPTION FULL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/05
2005-06-10363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/05; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS; AMEND
2005-04-1888(2)RAD 25/01/05--------- £ SI 100@1
2005-03-14363(288)DIRECTOR'S PARTICULARS CHANGED
2005-03-14363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/05; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2005-03-1488(2)RAD 23/04/04--------- £ SI 100@1
2005-02-10288aNEW DIRECTOR APPOINTED
2005-02-02AATOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/04
2005-01-11CERTNMCOMPANY NAME CHANGED CLASSMETHOD LIMITED CERTIFICATE ISSUED ON 11/01/05
2005-01-11287REGISTERED OFFICE CHANGED ON 11/01/05 FROM: UNIT 339 LEE VALLEY TECHNOPARK ASHLEY ROAD LONDON N17 9LN
2004-04-02363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/04; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2004-03-29288aNEW DIRECTOR APPOINTED
2004-01-15AATOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/03
2003-04-13363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/03; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2002-12-18AATOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/02
2002-04-25363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/02; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2002-01-17AATOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL ACCOUNTS MADE UP TO 31/03/01
2001-04-04363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/01; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
2001-02-01AAACCOUNTS FOR 'SMALL' CO. MADE UP TO 31/03/00
2000-04-19363(288)DIRECTOR'S PARTICULARS CHANGED
2000-04-19363sRETURN MADE UP TO 13/03/00; FULL LIST OF MEMBERS
1999-07-16AAACCOUNTS FOR 'SMALL' CO. MADE UP TO 31/03/99
Industry Information
SIC/NAIC Codes
62 - Computer programming, consultancy and related activities
620 - Computer programming, consultancy and related activities
62012 - Business and domestic software development




Licences & Regulatory approval
We could not find any licences issued to CML SOFTWARE LIMITED or authorisation from an industry specific regulator to operate. These may not be required.
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Risks
Legal Notices
No legal notices or events such as winding-up orders or proposals to strike-off have been issued
Fines / Sanctions
No fines or sanctions have been issued against CML SOFTWARE LIMITED
Liabilities
Mortgages / Charges
Total # Mortgages/Charges 2
Mortgages/Charges outstanding 0
Mortgages Partially Satisifed 0
Mortgages Satisfied/Paid 2
Details of Mortgagee Charges
Charge Type Date of Charge Charge Status Mortgagee
LEGAL CHARGE 2012-03-09 Outstanding NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC
DEBENTURE 2012-03-02 Outstanding NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC
Creditors
Creditors Due After One Year 2012-04-01 £ 250,016
Creditors Due Within One Year 2012-04-01 £ 92,649
Provisions For Liabilities Charges 2012-04-01 £ 0

Creditors and other liabilities

Filed Financial Reports
Annual Accounts
2013-03-31
Annual Accounts
2015-03-31
Annual Accounts
2016-03-31
Annual Accounts
2017-03-31
Annual Accounts
2018-03-31
Annual Accounts
2020-12-31
Annual Accounts
2021-12-31

These are the financial reports (either an abhreviated set of accounts or profit& loss statement and balance sheet) have been filed with Companies House. The reports allow you to do a basic business credit check on CML SOFTWARE LIMITED

Financial Assets
Balance Sheet
Called Up Share Capital 2012-04-01 £ 1,892
Cash Bank In Hand 2012-04-01 £ 350,414
Current Assets 2012-04-01 £ 412,093
Debtors 2012-04-01 £ 61,679
Fixed Assets 2012-04-01 £ 445,598
Shareholder Funds 2012-04-01 £ 414,365
Tangible Fixed Assets 2012-04-01 £ 445,598

Debtors and other cash assets

Intangible Assets
Patents
We have not found any records of CML SOFTWARE LIMITED registering or being granted any patents
Domain Names

CML SOFTWARE LIMITED owns 3 domain names.

classmethod.co.uk   cmlradar.co.uk   cmlsoftware.co.uk  

Trademarks
We have not found any records of CML SOFTWARE LIMITED registering or being granted any trademarks
Income
Government Income
We have not found government income sources for CML SOFTWARE LIMITED. This could be because the transaction value was below £ 500 with local government or below £ 25,000 for central government. We have found 8,000 supplier to government that are UK companies so approx 0.2% of companies listed on Datalog supply to government.

The top companies supplying to UK government with the same SIC code (62012 - Business and domestic software development) as CML SOFTWARE LIMITED are:

RBT (CONNECT) LIMITED £ 26,564,549
CIVICA UK LIMITED £ 1,982,966
IDOX SOFTWARE LTD £ 1,776,682
INSIGHT DIRECT (UK) LTD £ 1,091,588
BIBLIOTHECA LIMITED £ 848,557
SPRINGSOFT DESIGN AUTOMATION LIMITED £ 796,919
ADVANCED BUSINESS SOLUTIONS LIMITED £ 780,209
PROACT IT UK LIMITED £ 745,477
REDCENTRIC MANAGED SOLUTIONS LIMITED £ 678,520
OLDPBSL LIMITED £ 542,859
MDA SYSTEMS LIMITED £ 214,522,529
CIVICA UK LIMITED £ 148,474,418
CUSTOMER SERVICE DIRECT LIMITED £ 141,194,228
SOUTH WEST ONE LIMITED £ 83,260,694
INSIGHT DIRECT (UK) LTD £ 70,124,668
IDOX SOFTWARE LTD £ 55,441,495
SYNETRIX LIMITED £ 52,878,632
RBT (CONNECT) LIMITED £ 41,947,344
BOXXE LIMITED £ 28,265,762
H&F BRIDGE PARTNERSHIP LIMITED £ 27,595,116
MDA SYSTEMS LIMITED £ 214,522,529
CIVICA UK LIMITED £ 148,474,418
CUSTOMER SERVICE DIRECT LIMITED £ 141,194,228
SOUTH WEST ONE LIMITED £ 83,260,694
INSIGHT DIRECT (UK) LTD £ 70,124,668
IDOX SOFTWARE LTD £ 55,441,495
SYNETRIX LIMITED £ 52,878,632
RBT (CONNECT) LIMITED £ 41,947,344
BOXXE LIMITED £ 28,265,762
H&F BRIDGE PARTNERSHIP LIMITED £ 27,595,116
MDA SYSTEMS LIMITED £ 214,522,529
CIVICA UK LIMITED £ 148,474,418
CUSTOMER SERVICE DIRECT LIMITED £ 141,194,228
SOUTH WEST ONE LIMITED £ 83,260,694
INSIGHT DIRECT (UK) LTD £ 70,124,668
IDOX SOFTWARE LTD £ 55,441,495
SYNETRIX LIMITED £ 52,878,632
RBT (CONNECT) LIMITED £ 41,947,344
BOXXE LIMITED £ 28,265,762
H&F BRIDGE PARTNERSHIP LIMITED £ 27,595,116
Outgoings
Business Rates/Property Tax
No properties were found where CML SOFTWARE LIMITED is liable for the business rates / property tax. This could be for a number of reasons.
  • The council hasnt published the data
  • We havent found or been able to process the councils data
  • The company is part of a group of companies and another company in the group is liable for business rates
  • The registered office may be a residential address which does not have a commercial designation. If the business is run from home then it won't be a commercial property and hence won't be liable for business rates.
  • Serviced offices are increasingly popular and therefore a business may not be paying business rates directly - the building owner is and this is incorporated in the office rental charge.
Government Grants / Awards
Technology Strategy Board Awards
The Technology Strategy Board has not awarded CML SOFTWARE LIMITED any grants or awards. Grants from the TSB are an indicator that the company is investing in new technologies or IPR
European Union CORDIS Awards
The European Union has not awarded CML SOFTWARE LIMITED any grants or awards.
Ownership
    We could not find any group structure information
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